Monday, January 23, 2006
#123: Response to Jay's Two Comments
Jay, I am sure your comments may be of great interest to many readers; therefore, instead of responding to your comments in the comment section/window, I am making a separate post. This is your first comment concerning hellfire published in post # 122. If new readers have not read post 121 and 122 yet, scroll down a bit to read the post first.
Al. I think the point you made about separation from God in hell is true, and that will be some of the torment there. As far as not remembering and being a place of emptiness where there is nothing to reminder them of God, I don’t think this is scriptural. The story in Luke 16:22 tells us something different. This man was aware of his error and he was aware how good they had it on Gods side. Some may say this is just another parable, and you can’t take that literally. I don’t think so. There is no other parable where a name is used. This makes me think it is not a parable. If I am wrong please let me know. If I can think of any more scripture to prove this I will post later.. Al can you get a counter on this page so we can see how many hits you are getting. Thanks Jay
This is my response: There are over two dozen Bible verses telling of the resurrection of the dead and the Judgment on the last day. The popular belief held by many: As soon as a person dies they go either to heaven or hell, is false, according to Scripture. The portion of scripture you quoted Luke 16:19-31, is nothing but an illustration to the rich Jews of the time, and also a warning to us, confirming that wealth does not promise a good afterlife, but most likely, the opposite. That belief that God would condemn the rich was totally new to the Jewish community. They believed anyone who was wealthy was being blessed by God, just as God blessed Abraham and King Solomon.
What I alluded to is that Lazarus and the rich man dressed in purple could not have gone to heaven and hell, because the resurrection had not yet taken place. There are a multitude of Scriptures that tell when a person dies they go to sleep, waiting for resurrection on Judgment day. Let me give you just a very few verses. But if you desire the complete list, I have it waiting for you.
A unique verse in the Old Testament is found in 1st Samuel 28:11-15. This is the account of when King Saul asked the witch of Endor to bring up the holy prophet Samuel from the dead. “The women asked, whom shall I bring up for you? . . . What do you see? I see a spirit coming up out of the ground. What does he look like? An old man wearing a robe is coming up, she said. . . . Samuel said to Saul. Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Jay, my question to you is, why wasn’t Samuel in heaven, where Lazarus is supposed to be, or in hell where the unbelievers supposedly are.
Now I will go to the New Testament where the evidence is much weightier. An event most of us are familiar with, when Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha, was raised from the dead by Jesus. The complete story takes place in John 11th chapter. Verse 11, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to wake him up. His disciples replied, Lord if he sleeps, he will get better. Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. Verse 23, Jesus said to her, your brother will rise again. Martha answered, I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Matthew 12:36, “But I tell you that men will have [future tense] to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.
Peter 2:9 “. . . to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment . . .”
1st Corinthians 15:51, “We shall not all sleep, but we will all be changed–in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable.”
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jay, this is your second comment, concerning blog #121. A God for Skeptics
Oh Al Where is your child like faith? This statement “is the realm where my God evolved. Yes, God evolved,” (where’s the scripture) Has this approach worked in any conversions for you? I would like to know. When you put the word evolved with God. To me this means He was something less then before and became something better and improved. The word says Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. . For me it is just as easy to believe He was always the same God just as He will always be God. Our minds may not be able to compute this or at least mine doesn't, so that is when our faith kicks in and we can except it. I’ll be praying for you Al.. Jay
Jay, I think you missed the point, I hope other readers didn’t miss it also. This blog was meant exclusively for skeptics. Every mature Christian, including myself, believes that our God is eternal; that goes with out question. Unbelievers don’t believe in eternity. To them, it is no more than a fairytale. But to talk to them in spiritual baby talk, referring to the evolution of God is more palatable to them. My granddaughter who is only 22 months old, talks baby talk. If I was to attempt to explain the laws of physics to her, she would completely reject it. Do you see what I mean? What I said in that paragraph concerning God evolving is not what I believe, although I wrote what I believe in the rest of that post. In fact God’s eternity is one of the most inspiring topics I immensely enjoy meditating on.
I can tell you for a fact, when discussing spirituality with a skeptic/atheist, relative, friend or even a stranger, and use that approach, (spiritual baby talk) the person may not get converted on the spot,-–if at all--but it will stop him/her dead on his/her tracks, and get them thinking, because you’re sure to have the last word. Remember those type of people think we Christians are all weak and dependent fools who need a make-believe crutch to make it through life. Most often they have a greater intelligence then some Christians. That, sometimes, gets in the way of their believing in anything spiritual. Read the blog again in that context and then see how it sounds.
Additionally, it would profit you and make you more successful in your witnessing, if you are intimately familiar with the Bible by having a thousand or so New Testament verses, not so much memorized, but paraphrased on the tip of your tongue. Seems like every time we encounter a skeptic, we will learn more of their tactics of trying to trip us up. That method of spreading the gospel is a continue learning experience. We may/should have child-like faith, but at the same time, be as wise as snakes. And, if we have pure motives, and not just an attempt to put notches on our belt, Jesus Christ can and will give us wisdom-- which won’t come easy or quick--beyond what any atheist can counter. Thanks for your prayers–I hope you didn’t say it sarcastically. We all need to pray for each other. And I hope and pray for your continuous success in knowing exactly what our Lord will have for you to do for Him.
: 5:36 PM 
Concerning the thief on the Cross, I have mentioned that subject several times in previous blogs–evidently you haven’t read much of “Religion’s Crime Against God.” I am not certain if you are aware of the fact that before the 15th century there was no punctuation, verses or even chapters. The aforementioned were inserted/separated sometime after the printing press was invented to make reading more coherent for the common people. The comma in that verse was placed by writers where they thought it belonged according to their belief of the time. They were wrong. Just move the comma from the word ‘truth’ and place it after the word ‘today.’ Now it reads, “I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise.” Written that way, the thief could go to paradise any time, but not before Jesus. What I am saying, is the thief could not have gone to heaven before Jesus. Check John 20:17. The conversation between Jesus and Mary after Jesus’ resurrection just outside His tomb: “Jesus said, do not hold on me, for I have not yet returned to the Father.”
Concerning your comment in the book of Revelation, about the saints who saw the Lord. Read Revelation 20:4-6, then read in the same book 6:9-11. They came to life because they have part in the first resurrection.
Concerning Samuel, is there was even a hint of Satan’s work, scripture would have made it known. And, besides, do you think Satan has power over God’s greatest prophet. No way, Hosea. Concerning Peter 2:9, I can’t understand your logic.
The point I am attempting to make is the dead sleep, not in the ground, but somewhere in safe keeping by God, and that the dead do not go directly to heaven or hell at physical death. You forgot to mention the conversation Mary and Jesus had about Lazarus.
There is only one remedy for organized religion. Yes, for those who know God’s will; as it says in Revelation 18:4, “Come out of her, my people,” otherwise, destruction in hell. Organized religion is responsible for the deplorable condition of Christianity. And it sounds as if you may be part of it. It makes no sense to put your money on a dead horse. The church per se, has its mind made up, and no one is going to change it. The church has too much at stake financially to change its dogma. Anyone who thinks they can change the church is delirious. It is my desire to inform the laity, and even the clergy, with God’s guidance, to the best of my ability, as to what the Bible says, and leave the rest up to God. The organized church is full of phony baloney hypocrites. I am certain you are aware that “Christian” hypocrites have done more damage to the cause of Christ, than all hard-core atheist. The hypocrites know little or nothing about God or the New Testament, or they would leave it in a hurry--Even worldly hypocrites are shunned once their deceit is obvious. But most church hypocrites can’t leave because it is too easy. There protocol: do nothing to further the cause of Christ, but make certain to go to church, give your 10 % and be “good,” if even that. I hope you are not one of them. But this adage still is true, “Birds of a feather flock together.” When a atheists goes from unbelief to church belief, it’s like jumping from a frying pan into the fire. Between all these tough words, I know for certain there are exceptions. I hope you are one of them. God bless you in your search for the truth. Althinker.
Concerning Samuel, only God knew the future of King Saul, and God through Samuel predicted Sauls death the following day. It is stupid of me to bring this up again.
Concerning Paul: he would rather be with the Lord. I would also. Where does it say he or I will be in a conscious state? Don't answer that. Only one logical answer: save keeping is in the Lord's care, in a sleeping state. End of discussion on these topic. You and I are on two different sides of a fence, and the two will not agree. Nevertheless, I enjoyed your challenge. Thanks. Althinker
P.S.
You think God's arm is short. If the organized church did not exist for the last 2000 years, Christ' church would/might be much smaller, but most likely it would be pure and genuine. It would have been up to God if you or I would be part of it.
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